My evaluation of this shard *warning long post*

General Bugs / Suggestions My evaluation of this shard *warning long post*

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  • #3166
    loki
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    Pease read the whole post before commenting as many things are connected to oneanother

    I’ve played ZH back and forth over the past 20 years or so and I believe Dreams has taken ZH to a whole new level

    Thief class, love it. Fun to play, made a useless class unique that’s viable for both hunt and PvP
    Boss mobs. Yes it’s the best thing that happened
    Tomes and T-scrolls and the fact that you can buy them for gold is just brilliant. Keeps the game interesting past 130 and make gold useful and sought after. Same with Champion spawns
    Lowered stats from mods. Makes you think twice before putting on the first clean mod you find, myself I wouldnt put a Thief’s kilt on instead of an adamantium or skill mod when adamantium gives me +6 ar and the Thief’s gives me +4 dex

    Class Balance:
    This is provided that the chars are spec 5/6 with proper gear on
    Out of 10 matches it’s hitorically been War > Ranger, Mage > War, Ranger > Mage then PP stood abit outside this
    This is how it shuld be in my opinion, but it should maybe not be that way 10/10 times, a ranger should be able to beat a war, war a a mage and a mage a ranger
    Right now a war will beat a a ranger 10/10 times, War will beat a mage 9/10 times, a War will lose to a PP 8/10 times, will kill a thief if the thief messes up other that that they wont kill oneanother provided they both have consumables and are spec 5+
    Ranger will beat a PP 7/10 times, Ranger will beat a mage 10/10 times, Ranger will beat a PP 7/10 times
    Thief will not kill a PP, nor will it die to a PP, Thief will beat a mage 10/10 times
    PP will beat a mage 10/10 times
    Bard will lose 10/10 times against any class

    “Broken” Items:
    Blackrock. way too powerful taking away survivability through boost and mana all in 1 hit. This alone takes PPs, Rangers, Mages out of the game, Thieves, Bards and Warriors arent as affected.
    Void. It’s essentially a useless item. It has piercing + drains 1 random stat for a bit. Used to be that it drained all stats for abit, then it was still an OK item to have until you found a bloody wep. Now it’s better to use a might weapon than a Void weapon
    Some caster weapons. Mage’s bane for example, casts mana drain with a chance, while vampiric or blackrock drains all mana in 1 hit
    Blinding. This is useless since you can remove it simple by checking a box in Razor/UO Steam
    Elemental Fury. It’s a powerful spell, but it’s also only doing the spell, no physical dmg mod so unless you get a stygian fast 1 hander or bow with 70% chance or us it’s not worth much and so far we’ve found 1 item above 15% cast out of maybe 15 items
    Bloody. It’s the most broken of them all. Once a warrior has a bloody weapon he can solo every boss with ease. They dont need more healing.
    Poison Weapons and poison pots nagates oneanother

    One of the biggest issues on this shard is how powerful boosts are compared to how high main stats you have. In full mod clothing I get +28 str and +30 dex and it’s all +8 or +10 mods
    Boost from a spec 6 mage with sages and nag staff + Taints pot ontop of that will range from +202-239 in all stats. Compare that to what I get from my mods. Now it’s easy to see it’s pointless to wear mods except for when you are dispelled, as while boosted they dont even count for 10% of my stats

    Now I’ve presented the issues I’ve come to think of. I’ve probably missed a few

    I will now present my suggestions to possible fixes to these issues
    Lets start with boosting since that is what really messes things up in my opinion
    Greatly lower the amount boosted or remove it completely (if removed completely then maybe add a dispellable curse-immunity instead)
    I’d say lower it to 25% of what it is now. And rebalance attackspeed, damage done/taken around the lower stats
    That way you arent defined by your boost. You can do things wihtout it, you arent automatically turned into a slime that died from being looked at, but you are of cousre at a disadvantage, but still not useless
    Your base stats, armor, mods will become more important. So gearing up with more than just a good weapon will actually help you while hunting. I understand why people going out in goddess armor and a GM wep, since the boost will turn them into gods anyhow

    Class Balance:
    Power Playerss:
    – I believe they are pretty much where they should be.
    They are weak as hell without the proper gear, but if you strike gold finding the right caster weapons they can be very powerful.
    – Few thing make them abit dull. Terrible at solo hunting, Dependant on warriors to tank for them, Mainly a PvP char

    Rangers:
    – Damage wise they seem alright
    – They are dead as soon as they are blackrocked. No HP, no mana to teleport with
    – Can’t dispel anymore
    – This would all be balanced with the boost squish as they will have more HP in comparison if they are dispelled, they are no longer dependdant on dispelling others

    Thieves:
    – Too powerful early game, way to weak late game in PvE. Poison damage starts out high and raises very slowly with spec levels and it does not scale with gear so even with a normal bow a spec 1 thief can kill bosses alone (slowly but easily)
    – Make the poison damage start out lower so spec 1-3 thieve’s are a bit weaker and make it a tiny bit higher, nothing major at all but so it’s not pointless going from spec 5-6 and losing magery as +6 dmg difference is nothing seeing as poison doesnt tick very often
    Another way could be to make something scale with stats or to have poison damage get a scaling multiplier against NPCs (example spec 2 gives psn vs npcs 1.2x dmg, lvl 3 1.4, lvl 4 1.6, lvl 5 1.8, lvl 6 2.0) This way Thieves wont fall that much behind at higher level hunting as they are now
    – Talked to Dreams about spec thieves and what it gives combat wise. Supposed to give more hit chance, damage multiplier and about 5+ psn tick per level. I have not seen the damage multiplier part, at least not for archery, does nice dmg with kryss though. PPs seem to do same dmg with archery as spec 6 thief
    – Abit too reliant on poison in PvP. Poison is very strong, but it’s the only weapon they have in their arsenal. Their hits wont hurt anything except a mage. Perhaps this is how it should be, but again this takes gear out of the equation which I dislike. You can shoot 1 arrow then hide, pointless to do anything else, as your other hits wont deal any damage

    Bards:
    – They are essentially mages without utility to speak of since they only really have a use in group hunts and in group hunts bard skills arent needed
    – Good for killing champion trash and boosting armor. That’s it
    – Mages and even PPs will outheal them in AOE
    – Their AOE dispel(unlike mage if it’s cast from range) will dispel themselves
    – Have no use of gear since it gives them nothing
    – Can kill no one in PvP since they can only use the worst weapon in the game and all their spells can be protected against

    – I suggest to open up use of all staves like mages
    – Make them benefit from Magic Efficieny and allow them to wear Nag staff and Sages
    – This way they can deal some type of increased single target damage and be of some more use than to buff armor and they have some gear to strife for
    – Give them a Song that is impossible to protect against (I believe they use to have that before) such as an AOE mind blast type of song(maybe not mind blast, but non protectable dmg)
    – Also give them STR/INT buff. They can buff everything else but not that
    – Make the stat boosts a tiny bit weaker tha a mages but the armor abit higher so they can be used for both, but it’s advantages to have both a bard and a mage still (with boost squish this will be minor, but always fun for those who wants to optimize)

    Mages:
    – Lower the physical damage they take. They die from 1 hit by anything pretty much. This will promote them wearing armor as it might actually make a difference
    – They cant damage any player but warriors and they need around 8 mind blasts to kill a warrior and the warrior can heal between mind blast 2 and 3 up to full again
    – Double the amount of damage Mind Blast does and make it bypass Magic Reflection such as moonstone. This way they can at least stand a chance if they manage to get in a mass dispel on a Thief/PP/Ranger and it will help them on their way to once again becoming warriors counter
    – Maybe make reactive armor give you greatly reduced damage against 1 hit, only castable on self and scale with magic efficiency so it wont make as much difference for other classes

    Warriors:
    – The most broken class atm, some admin must really love them.
    – Like stated above they survive 8 mind blasts before dying
    – The melee damage reduce they get is just too good. A Ranger cant even kill a cursed warrior.
    – Right now warriors have the best of both worlds. They have protections against magic, they have insane melee protection. Almost no mobs and near no bosses can dispel anymore(which is a good thing, but it’s in warrior’s favour)
    – They deal alot of damage and they can kill any boss on their own and if they have a bloody weapon when do it with ease.
    – They can run and heal for over 200 every 4 seconds ontop of Tamlas and heal fish wich other classes rely on.

    – Make spec war take more magic damage, it’s just too easy right now, dont really notice any increase in damage taken with levels but the decrease in melee taken is incredible. All their skills help them survive and do more damage and then the class bonuses ontop of that increasing with level just scales too well.
    – Allow them to wear lvl 6 elemental/necro etc like it is now, but have them only give max 75% or maybe even less protection 60-65% maybe(right now warriors tank everything including caster bosses, shouldnt always be the case tbh, its not like a mage or even a PP will tank a melee boss, not even one of the weaker ones). All other classes has a weakness, warriors only weakness cant be not being able to wear level 6 moonstone.
    – Lower bandage heal and to be frank, make healing interrupt if moving. This will put them at the same disadvantage as all other classes (except mages) having to rely on tamlas and fish to heal in PvP but it still gives them the oportunity to stop and heal if there’s low incoming damage or if they run around out of line of sight. It wont affect them too much in PvE as they can stand still for the most part, at least when they tank and that’s when the damage is incoming. A warrior is hard enough to kill without them having 3 ways to heal
    – They deal alot of damage, if they should stay that way, they should be less tanky. No class should have it all
    – Make the reduced dmg taken from each level have diminishing returns, as now every spec makes more and more difference. PPs/Thieves wont deal more than 2% dmg in a hit with a dev wep to a warrior with shield(not much more to a war without) while the war will hit them right back with 15%

    *Broken items*
    Mages Bane caster weapon
    – Maybe if it cast mana vampire it would have some sort of use in PvE
    Bloody Weapons
    – Remove it please or make it a small fixed amount so it’s a minor upgrade, but not as OP as it is right now
    – Maybe add something else that can be used by all classes that is rare and can help a weapon bypass a GM weapon so you have something to hunt for other than mods
    Void weapons
    – Used to be that it drained all stats for abit, then it was still an OK item to have until you found a bloody wep. Now it’s better to use a might weapon than a Void weapon
    Blinding
    – Just remove it from the game, it’s outdated and has no place in modern UO
    Poison Weapons
    – Add poison level 7 to weapon, but lower damage of all non-thief poison so it can still be used, but it’s not a game changer. poison weapons cant be used for killing bosses in PvE anyhow since they are all immune, so it’s only use is PvP and prots take away that use
    Blackrock
    – Change it so it only dispels, or only drains the mana. I’d suggest only dispel so you’ll have to drain the mana in a different way, through vampiric weapons, void etc (provided the boosting gets changed, if not swap it so it drains mana)
    Elemental Fury
    – Since most of the elemental fury can be protected against(can even heal you) Make the % higher as it’s already a very rare item and it has to be swift/stygian and a very good weapon type and % to surpass Nag staff
    – Make Ele fury a common suffix to staves, since then mages/bards will take em out for a spin and not be so weak. No mater how good they are they will NEVER surpass Nag staff, as nag staff gives magic eff and has 80 speed and damage modifier. Even a stygian staff with 100% cast wont stand a chance, so it’s not like it will make much difference anyhow except for ppl who dont ahve or dont dare to use Nag staff

    Feel free to leave your comments
    And I would love to get some kind of response from staff, at least that you have read it if you have
    I understand this is alot of major changes and alot of people won’t agree because they want things to be as it is and half the shard plays a war and they get slammed the most in this post
    Also developer do this on their own free time, I just want to give my opinion of where the shard lack in balancing and what items/classes are simply useless or too strong, but also present a suloution, without affecting game play and keeping the ZH feeling intact. I love this game, just a few things that can be better

    #3173
    b3rtil
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    Great post Loki, I agree with your post and UO would be much more fun with these changes.

    #3174
    tanny44
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    Loki your post is complete bullshit…
    Only class that needs work and should be better is a pp!!! They loose to all classes easy or else your dressed like god

    And thief’s need to be turned down it’s a must they are to opt!! Thief can kill all classes easy… vs a warrior with sages boost and staff boost 300 plus stats I lose to a thief easy after even chugging a tamala and not to mention it was spear vs spear and thief won.. psn damage is way to opt and needs to be turned down… and as for hunting I don’t understand why your saying let thief do more damage lmao if thief’s become any stronger I’m leaving this one sided shard… thief’s are way to strong… my lvl 5 warrior with 300 plus stats no matter what wepon I use only does 1-3 damage a bit to a monster…. turn up pps so they are useful turn down thief’s they are way to opt way to many advantages can’t be revealed can use free extra skills and no poison protect against them… fuck them they are way to opt… pps take time to build and gear up!!! Make pps better there the only class that takes real work…. and don’t change mages because your guildmate mofce proves mages can own!!! And don’t bring Blackrock up because your guild recently got owned in arena because the use of Blackrock… fuck Loki suggestions dude your guild already are gods man… stop trying to opt ideas to fit all your characters you created!!!! Up pps and lower thief’s only problem I see thief’s beat all classes

    #3175
    tanny44
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    Rangers are fine
    Mages are fine
    Thief’s need to turn psn down its way way way to opt
    Turn up pps because only class that takes real work to gear and macro and not to mention this is the only class that can lose to ALL Classes
    Warriors are fine

    Blackrocks where better when they weren’t being found and now people find them since loot update!! I think they should of stayed as rare as a sages with No one finding them..

    #3177
    loki
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    Sorry Tanny. I in this scenario the thief PvPs a player who knows how to counter it and uses more than tamla. If you have over 300 str, it will take roughly 7 ticks of poison to kill you with a spec 5 thief. That’s plently of time for the war to cure and start healing again, or to simply run away

    #3178
    acidhouse
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    Mages are not fine, too weak. Must have been downtuned through all these zulu clones because they are not what they used to be.

    Warriors are not fine, way to overpowered (speaking as a warrior). Maybe not because of the damage they deal but the way they can use gem armors and silver hides which grants them too many free slots to use for lvl4+ prots.

    Thiefs might need a tweak as well, though I’m not to familiar with this class. Poison stacking on weapons needs a limit though. As we speak you can basically add a “Poisoned” prefix to any weapon you like (+10k charges).
    Maybe poisoning should weaken the quality on which weapon it’s aplied too as well.

    PP is the hardest (and most fun) class to play and giving a pp a boost will certainly make it instantly over powered. If you know how to play pp then it is fine.

    Magery should not be restricted (circles) but if said class has a physical damage bonus they should also get a decrease in magic efficiency.

    I agree as mentioned above that blackrock should be as rare as a sage robe as it is the item that most dramatically changes the pvp on zh and way that you get your pants pulled down in a fight (and yes, I do own, and use blackrock weapons).

    Buffs definetly needs to be decreased, even though a 106+106 buff is really nice and convenient. I doubt this is the way the game is supposed to be played.

    Prots need be weaker as well (as I’ve mentioned in another topic). Lvl6 prots is as common as lvl3 prots used to be and defeats the purpose of mages and pp’s if all spells (except mb) heals your opponent.

    Moonstone/blackrock prot drops needs to be lowered or disappear completly as they are too common and powerfull as well. Needs to be as rare as a sages.

    #3179
    qark
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    i want to know this “– They can run and heal for over 200 every 4 seconds”
    how every 4 seconds? because i am spec 4 and cant heal that fast

    #3180
    loki
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    This is not really a post focused on Thief PvP as that wont change much (only PvE poison damage really changes) Lower lever thief gets nerfed, spec 6 gets a minor buff, because fighting other spec 6 chars they will not be able to kill most of them since poison is easy to counter with the right knowhow and another spec 6 should know how, rest is unchanged

    Dont get hung up on the fact that I play thief.
    This post is about balancing game play, making buffs weaker, and making your base stats and gear stronger to make up for the fact that you get less stats from buffs, this will balance blackrock in PvP for example and make it less OP since it will only reduce your stats by 30% rather than 70%

    #3181
    loki
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    tested this as PP just now. Healing takes about 4-5 seconds with bandages if you dont slip, which you probably wont if you run while doing it as you wont get hit much

    #3272
    avery
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    I feel like this post would make a stronger impact if the information told in here would be accurate. It does look like you are comparing the classes in a confined space such as the arena. Sure a ranger will most likely to be defeated against a warrior when the ranger cant put any space between them. I strongly disagree with the match ups, ranger is just as likely to kill a warrior as the other way around. Going away from the matchups…

    How exactly does blackrock take pp,rangers and mages out of the game? if anything blackrock is super important as a ranger, and pp has other means to dispel and is nowhere near certain death because a warrior has one. elemental fury hits harder then any weapon a warrior carries. So lets be real here, if you cant fight a warrior because he has blackrock, you surely dont know how to play the game and has no right bring up these issues. Clearly no warrior will be running around with lvl 6 fire,water,earth and air.

    As for bloody, sure it does make it alot easier to kill certain bosses, but unless finding the correct weapon you are better off using kieri/lance since it will kill bosses faster and healing is rarely the problem in pvm.

    Wether the mods give 50 or 5 in stats, its never pointless, there are no alternative items to wear and adding another 50-100 str/dex does make a big difference. One mod alone wont do much unless it brings you to certain points, such as 300,350,400 where the difference comes in hand. Adding bonus damage/speed.

    And lastly a claim that really annoys me, ” They cant damage any player but warriors and they need around 8 mind blasts” “Like stated above they survive 8 mind blasts before dying”. I just tested it and it did 123 damage each mind blast, so no matter how you look at it, it takes 3 spells to kill a warrior as a mage, either 3-4 mindblast or dispel,curse and mindblast. Where do you get your facts from? you cant protect yourself from either dispel,curse or mindblast which every other class can and also takes 2 hits to kill a mage, not one hit.

    Warriors are the least of the problems in this matter.

    Where do i agree however is the mage class in general, id like for them to be more viable,same with bard. I wouldnt mind seeing pp and thief get slightly boosted in pvm aswell. While thief may not be the fastest killer, they are however the closest class to being immortal in pvp since no one can detect them and poison is super strong and will kill most people in 2 hits when dispelled. Play your cards right and you will never die.

    Void weapons needs to be changed, they are rare to find but completely useless, and elemtal fury is close to impossible to find and when you do they always have a low cast rate.

    All the invalid information and claims makes this post pretty dumb, while i do appreiciate the effort and i agree with you that some stuff needs to be changed, atleast get the facts straight..

    #3273
    orks777
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    on server disbalance with classes. Loki may be to thief need add in base 100 resist for good PVE – LMAO, thief INVULNERABLE where its make not interestinct play where… u post is LMAO. thief can hide with magic fish and not any classe can kill him, mage die from archery, warrior cant have detect, ranger not have detect, PP cant detect thief AND So U need good in PVE LMMAAAOOOOO…. its make after 30 online and or all start train thief or delete all classes and only train THIEF lol

    #3274
    pixy
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    PVP poison = 1 poison bottle = 3 charges
    1 charge = deadly
    2 charge = greater
    3 charge = normal
    if you wanna to pvp you need make something more then just stay and use your
    infinity poison! at least change your weapon to have a good poison on target. or we need to make working poison protection from poison. or just reduce physical damage to player about 20-30%.
    we just test archery damage without poison 4 levels thief vs ranger with identical conditions and you know what? thief making bigger than ranger ( lol w*f? )

    PVE poison = like at this moment
    if you wanna kill monsters sure poison can be a good in damaging top mobs.

    I play thief and understand that its not properly when no protection from poison, when phusical damage is bigger than classes…

    #3275
    archaxe
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    I think we can agree that mages need to be reworked, as they are currently unable effectively solo anything in PvE. However, I think the argument can be made without relying on exact numbers that we don’t have, and that no one can really be bothered to do enough testing for a reliable estimate anyway.

    I disagree that warriors are not a problem.
    First, the presence of blackrock weapons (even if rare) selectively benefits warriors over rangers (and to some extent thieves), simply because the vast majority of weapons are melee weapons that warriors can use effectively. There are a few (I tink 6?) ranged weapons and a much larger number of melee weapons (something like 60+?). This makes it much easier (albeit still hard) for a warrior to find a blackrock weapon, while the chance for a ranger to obtain one is near-zero. Further, equipping a blackrock weapon does not impact warriors in the slightest because they are not affected by the mana drain. However, even if the ranger was to find a blackrock bow, equipping it will instantly drain all his mana meaning he cannot teleport away unless he choose to forfeit his tamla potion (i.e. his one viable heal) in favor of a GM refresh.

    Second, no other class benefit as much from bloody weapons as warriors. Bloody weapons allow warrior to tank any boss in the game without the need for healing. Thieves cannot tank bosses even with bloody weapons, as they take too much initial damage. Bloody weapons are nice for rangers, but doesn’t impact them as much because rangers rely on mitigation of incoming damage rather than healing up lost damage.

    Third, statmods are comparatively weak due to buffs being so strong. They are not pointless, and stacking them adds upp to powerful benefits, but having access to a well-geared high level mage is way more important (and safe) than finding a large enough amount of mods to matter. You also do not risk losing the mage, who can be safely placed in the guild house, while you risk losing the mods. As such, mods play a role in that they add marginal benefit only among players with access to similar mage buffs (which, at this point in time would be pretty much anyone). However, it makes the reliance on blackrock and dispels to remove said buffs all the higher, as the discrepancy between a buffed and an unbuffed player is much higher (a magnitude of about 200 stats) than the discrepancy between a player with statmods and one without (a magnitude of about 40 stats).

    Fourth, regarding mages, it doesn’t really matter so much if a mage kills a warrior in 8 spells, 3 spells or even 1 spell. Mages are so weak in PvE that you will never encounter a sole mage in the wild. As they they are not feasible to solo hunt with, there is no reason for them to go alone outside of Occlo which effectively nullifies the mage-threat to warriors. Thus, the argument about warriors being weak vs mages rest on a hypothetical scenario that is never realized.
    Also, the requirements for a mage to be competitive include two of the most rare items in the game (Sage’s Robe and Nagash’s staff), which will never be worn by a mage in the field (at least not solo) due to the risk in doing so vastly outweighing the potential reward.

    Finally, the strength in warriors stems partly from the fact that they are allowed to wear gem armors, effectively freeing up slots to use more powerful items and additional stat mods. Sure, you can get lvl3 protects from GM armors but with an RND fortified hat you don’t have to wear those items and can go for statmods or other items instead. Also, a 75% spell reduction is sufficient for any caster mob not to pose a threat, allowing warriors to solo tank every single mob in the game, which no other class can. Combined with their innate physical protection this makes their damage mitigation as well as their healing abilities unparallelled. While rangers and thieves have a hard(ish) time in confined spaces (and are somewhat susceptible to some caster mobs with Rel Por) warriors can breeze through any dungeon at an unmatched pace. The worst threat a warrior can face is a mage hunter, a Seeker or a Deathmag.
    And mages, as always, have a hard time anywhere outside of Occlo.

    #3277
    qark
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    why is it a big deal if warriors have prots?…. i mean every class has them..
    rangers clear whole dungs solo, ran into it a few times. i have never seen a solo warrior in the dungs

    dont need gem armors for warriors because with the right gm armor you free up enough jewelry slots to have prots in everything

    #3278
    avery
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    Like i said, i do agree about the part that mages should become more viable, but 3 or 8 spells is a huge difference.

    Sure in theory its easier to find a blackrock weapon for a warrior seeing the amount of weapons to chose from (its 33 weapons to be exact, not 60+) although using that as an argument that warriors are to strong and needs to be changed? i dont buy it.

    You make it sound like you can only use 1 pot during an entire fight. I don’t wanna tell you how to play a ranger but they are meant to distance themself, kite or run away to buy time, using a mana potion is not gonna forfeit the fight. Not to mention if you use mana pot, its gonna be early in the fight where you are not likely to have to use tamla anyway.

    While bloody is more useful as a warrior then any other class, you dont need one at all, infact it would only slow you down while killing bosses since lance and kieri would be a better option in terms of speed and rarely is the case where you need extra heals other then from bandages.

    For you to change the buffs, now that stat mods are weaker, you would have to change the damage itself on every single class.

    Ofcourse it matters, if mages were to be more viable, the damage on mindblast would have to change for the worse. Not only would the damage input but also the damage output be changed, forcing them to use gear to be competetive but also directly impacting the damage depending on their gear, just like str and dex mods impact rangers and warriors.

    I don’t get why warriors being able to use gems is a problem. You could almost as easily obtain the lvl 3 prots from gm armor. Why should warriors not be able to use it while everyone else can? Warriors are supposed to be able to tank most stuff with the correct prots.

    I would love to see you tank a blue slaad as a warrior or dragon king. You clearly dont realize that rangers are faster then warriors in terms of killing bosses and will clear dungeon in a faster rate however it requires more attention from the player. Rel por is hardly an issue when you have your gear sorted out. Warriors are just a lazy mean of hunting but not the quickest one.

    Every other class can protect themself against dispel while warriors cannot.

    Dont get me wrong though, i agree that mages and bards requires some attention but you’re blaming items and what not on warriors being op which is so far from the truth.

    #3283
    archaxe
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    EDIT: Seems I had to split the post in two separate post. Not sure why.

    “3 or 8 spells is a huge difference”.
    It’s a difference of 5 spells, to be exact, but it doesn’t matter as long as it’s based on a hypothetical scenario that never occurs, such as a 1 mage vs 1 warrior. Are you at all worried about running into a lone mage in the wild, or are you att all threatened by the prospect of a 1v1 situation vs a mage? If not, is that due to mages not wearing both sage’s robe and nagash staff? My guess is “no”, because mages simply doesn’t pose a threat to warriors. It has very little to do with how many spells required to kill someone and more to do with the fact that they are simply not viable to hunt with, hence you never risk encountering one. (And if you do he’s without a horse, naked, and corpse running because he was killed by a black wisp).

    “Sure in theory its easier to find a blackrock weapon for a warrior”

    And also in practice. Blackrock weapons are more common for melee than for ranged, and as a consequence there are more blackrock melee weapons than ranged ones currently on the shard. From my own experience I’ve seen 2 ranged blackrock weapons and an uncountable number of melee ones; YMMV. Thus, warriors can more easily obtain blackrock weapons, and are unaffected from the negative aspects when using them because they do not rely on mana.
    A solution would be to remove the mana drain when equipping blackrock weapons.

    “You make it sound like you can only use 1 pot during an entire fight.”

    Depending on how long the fight is, sure, but the median length of fights doesn’t exceed 30 seconds. It’s also more of a case of “one person running from another” rather “than two people fighting”. So sure, you can run for more than 30 seconds, if you count that as a fight.
    The point is that blackrock for rangers involves a trade-off; possibly a dispel but no teleport, dispel then potion to be able to teleport but no heal for 30 seconds, or no dispel in favor of teleporting and healing. Warriors face no such dilemma; blackrock is a no-brainer to them.
    A partial solution would be to introduce separate cooldowns for healing potions and other potions, or to introduce a “mana fish” similar to “heal fish” (could do away with nightsight fish, for example), or to remove the mana drain when equipping blackrock weapons.

    #3284
    archaxe
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    “Every other class can protect themself against dispel while warriors cannot.”
    Yes, An Ort and Vas An Ort pose a threat to warriors, which is why those spells were removed from the arsenal of the vast majority of all mobs, including all bosses. This change disproportionally benefit warriors because they were the only ones who could not wear magic reflect to protect against it. I agree this is convenient and a QoL change, but you’d have to agree it benefit warriors way more than other classes, as do many other changes. Similarly, dispel used to be available to anyone with sufficient magery, which was also changed to be exclusive to mages (of which there are none except in groups).

    “For you to change the buffs, now that stat mods are weaker, you would have to change the damage itself on every single class.”
    Yes, of course. Currently, the game is tailored for players running around with 300+ in all stats, which means that players without access to a high level mage are not competitive, not in PvE and definitely not in PvP. I think buffs, damage output and monster hp should be squished to accomodate new levels, and that buffs should play a much smaller role, as currently they make or break the game. Decimating the benefit of statmods while leaving buffs and damage untouched makes no sense to me.

    “I would love to see you tank a blue slaad as a warrior or dragon king.”
    Dragon King can be tanked with a swift bloody vanq+. Blue Slaad hits like a truck, but hits slow and misses quite alot. Both can be solo tanked by warriors with top tier gear, definitely with good bloody weapons.

    “Why should warriors not be able to use it [magic protection] while everyone else can?”

    The point is that using elemental protection items offset warriors weakness (which used to be magical damage) way more than, say, wearing melee protection offset a mage’s weakness. A mage still dies from 1-2 hits regardless of using level6 melee protection or not, while wearing magical protection is crucial for a warrior and pretty much nullifies the threat of magical damage. Again, this disproportionally benefits warriors in that they can equip items to almost completely offset their weakness. The only thing warriors could not protect against was Mind Blast, which was consequently nerfed to only do a fraction of its original damage – again selectively benefitting warriors.
    A solution would be limit magical protection on warriors to, say, 50%. Currently, casters pose no threat because the magical damage is so low that it can be easily out-healed using only bandages. The melee damage from casters is more to worry about than the magical damage (especially since they can be mana drained with 1 hit).

    “you’re blaming items and what not on warriors being op”
    My point is that many changes implemented on the shard selectively benefit warriors (e.g. introducing blackrock, removing dispels, allowing gem armors, nerfing mind blast), which accrue over time to make them comparatively stronger than other classes.
    Rangers were nerfed not to be able to dispel, which was arguably too strong. The only change to mages is free macefighting for staves, which is cute but of little actual benefit.
    I think thieves has some very strong benefits as well which should be looked into, such as hiding from almost everything (cannot be detected), and very strong pvp poison (but it’s their only viable means of damage in PvP and can be quite easily countered by fish, potions or bandages).

    Warriors haven’t had a single nerf that I can think of, only buffs, unless you count the fix to exploit moonstone on warriors on early omega 1.0 as a “nerf”. Incidentally, this was only fixed after we figured out why Erza could not be mind blasted, and subsequently did the same to our own warriors and reported it. Curiously, this wasn’t reported by Erza, but rather exploited (also without punishment) while an analogous situation (e.g. thieves equipping shields) resulted in jail time and an immediate rule change.

    #3482
    b3rtil
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    Know this is a late reply to this tread, but recently wanted to see how big a difference mage buff makes in PVP and how big of a deal Blackrock really is.

    So a Spec 5 Ranger with Dreams Tainted Fury fully mage buffed, (about 90-95 per buff)
    two shots me a Spec 6 Ranger with pretty decent gear, lvl 6 Melee prot etc. know rangers are glass cannons but almost one shotted.

    In my opinion Mage buffs makes to big a difference and should be scaled down to more “realistic” numbers.

    Posting a video of the event below.

    Youtube video

    ps. Will try and make a video later of other classes like warrior to see how fast they die under the same circumstances.

    #3488
    schaukoski
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    b3rtil, i think you are absolutly right.

    I think the boost should not impact in DAMAGE. Only in more hitpoints.
    I think the damage should be only increased by the class level.

    #3489
    gagu
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    It’s really not impacting the damage necessarilly, but how fast he pulls off them shots, I reckon he used maybe 4 or 5 arrows in the time of 1 animation 😀

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